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	<title>Comments on: RAYS 2, Orioles 0: Pitching, pitching, pitching (and a special comment)</title>
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	<link>http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/</link>
	<description>Tampa Bay Rays Blog and News - Rays of Light</description>
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		<title>By: webdoyenne</title>
		<link>http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/comment-page-1/#comment-7805</link>
		<dc:creator>webdoyenne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 21:15:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/#comment-7805</guid>
		<description>I think the &quot;Some people will never be happy&quot; comment is way off base.  When you shoot from the hip and resort to a cliche like this, you are a) making assumptions about someone&#039;s state of mind, and b) essentially telling another blogger what s/he should or should not be writing.  I know RJ only through his writing, but I&#039;ve always found him to be interesting, articulate and very knowledgeable about...well, a sport (and a team) that all of us embrace.  He also has a great sense of humor and a lot of enthusiasm.  I&#039;ve never viewed anything he has written as being infused with negativism.  IMHO, he is a huge asset to the Rays blogosphere.

I think you are mistaking critical analysis for negativity.  And that&#039;s kind of a shame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the &#8220;Some people will never be happy&#8221; comment is way off base.  When you shoot from the hip and resort to a cliche like this, you are a) making assumptions about someone&#8217;s state of mind, and b) essentially telling another blogger what s/he should or should not be writing.  I know RJ only through his writing, but I&#8217;ve always found him to be interesting, articulate and very knowledgeable about&#8230;well, a sport (and a team) that all of us embrace.  He also has a great sense of humor and a lot of enthusiasm.  I&#8217;ve never viewed anything he has written as being infused with negativism.  IMHO, he is a huge asset to the Rays blogosphere.</p>
<p>I think you are mistaking critical analysis for negativity.  And that&#8217;s kind of a shame.</p>
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		<title>By: Sticks of Fire: a Tampa blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; best record in baseball!</title>
		<link>http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/comment-page-1/#comment-7803</link>
		<dc:creator>Sticks of Fire: a Tampa blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; best record in baseball!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 20:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/#comment-7803</guid>
		<description>[...] POST OF THE WEEK This week our favorite post was from Rays of Light for their response to DRays Bay complaints about Matt Garza&#8217;s 7 1/3 shutout innings. We are [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] POST OF THE WEEK This week our favorite post was from Rays of Light for their response to DRays Bay complaints about Matt Garza&#8217;s 7 1/3 shutout innings. We are [...]</p>
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		<title>By: bobr</title>
		<link>http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/comment-page-1/#comment-7767</link>
		<dc:creator>bobr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 16:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/#comment-7767</guid>
		<description>There is no disagreement here at all. In fact, the youth of the staff is a key component in any effort to evaluate what is going on.

I am very optimistic about Garza, and your points are absolutely legitimate. I suppose it comes down preferences. Nobody has to revel in analysis, although you are or course doing just that and very well. But I don&#039;t think it fair to criticize those who do, and I certainly don&#039;t think it is nitpicking to point out problems that exist.

Just as it is very possible that our young pitchers will continue to improve, it is also possible some won&#039;t. So it is not nitpicking to recognize and identify issues nor does it interfere with pure enjoyment. What it does to identify the issues is allow for the more optimistic to explore just such points as the staff&#039;s youth, the learning curve and factors that suggest improvement is coming while tempering irrational enthusiasm for those so-inclined.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no disagreement here at all. In fact, the youth of the staff is a key component in any effort to evaluate what is going on.</p>
<p>I am very optimistic about Garza, and your points are absolutely legitimate. I suppose it comes down preferences. Nobody has to revel in analysis, although you are or course doing just that and very well. But I don&#8217;t think it fair to criticize those who do, and I certainly don&#8217;t think it is nitpicking to point out problems that exist.</p>
<p>Just as it is very possible that our young pitchers will continue to improve, it is also possible some won&#8217;t. So it is not nitpicking to recognize and identify issues nor does it interfere with pure enjoyment. What it does to identify the issues is allow for the more optimistic to explore just such points as the staff&#8217;s youth, the learning curve and factors that suggest improvement is coming while tempering irrational enthusiasm for those so-inclined.</p>
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		<title>By: A.J.</title>
		<link>http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/comment-page-1/#comment-7764</link>
		<dc:creator>A.J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 14:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/#comment-7764</guid>
		<description>Here is the thing we need to remember about Garza right now-he is working on a 2-seam fastball.  He had never really thrown it very much in games before because he could throw 96-97 MPH with his 4-seam, and just wanted to try to blow by hitters.  Hickey has helped him realize that he can throw the 2-seam at 93-94, and be more successful with his movement.  His walks will be a little higher for now while he adjusts to his newfound movement, but he will have hitters swinging at tougher pitches earlier in the count, as well.  This means that he will be getting hitters out earlier in the count, so the K&#039;s will not be as high either.  I think that you&#039;ll see Garza&#039;s K-rate go up and BB-rate go down throughout the season as he continues to get more comfortable throwing all of his pitches.  Once he does that, you&#039;ll see him start setting hitters up more often to get to his offspeed stuff for the K.  The one great thing about our pitching staff, that we forget so often, is that our oldest starting pitcher is Shields-26 years old.  These guys don&#039;t usually hit their prime until 28, so we are seeing some great thing from guys, and we won&#039;t be seeing their best stuff for another few years.  So, while some people are wanting to nitpick at every little peripheral stat, I will just sit back and enjoy watching good, young pitching, and just relaxing with my thoughts that it is more than likely going to get even better over the next few years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is the thing we need to remember about Garza right now-he is working on a 2-seam fastball.  He had never really thrown it very much in games before because he could throw 96-97 MPH with his 4-seam, and just wanted to try to blow by hitters.  Hickey has helped him realize that he can throw the 2-seam at 93-94, and be more successful with his movement.  His walks will be a little higher for now while he adjusts to his newfound movement, but he will have hitters swinging at tougher pitches earlier in the count, as well.  This means that he will be getting hitters out earlier in the count, so the K&#8217;s will not be as high either.  I think that you&#8217;ll see Garza&#8217;s K-rate go up and BB-rate go down throughout the season as he continues to get more comfortable throwing all of his pitches.  Once he does that, you&#8217;ll see him start setting hitters up more often to get to his offspeed stuff for the K.  The one great thing about our pitching staff, that we forget so often, is that our oldest starting pitcher is Shields-26 years old.  These guys don&#8217;t usually hit their prime until 28, so we are seeing some great thing from guys, and we won&#8217;t be seeing their best stuff for another few years.  So, while some people are wanting to nitpick at every little peripheral stat, I will just sit back and enjoy watching good, young pitching, and just relaxing with my thoughts that it is more than likely going to get even better over the next few years.</p>
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		<title>By: bobr</title>
		<link>http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/comment-page-1/#comment-7763</link>
		<dc:creator>bobr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 02:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/#comment-7763</guid>
		<description>A.J., I agree the essential point is the win and that he pitched pretty well. I also think that the 4 walks are misleading as one was semi-intentional and the other came after he should have been out of the game, while two were in his one tough inning which he negotiated very well. Actually I posted that at DRays Bay and RJ acknowledged it.

But there is a reason to care. We are concerned with more than the immediate result or even the immediate situation in the standings. Those may be primary, but they are not all there is. Every team, and its fans as well, is concerned with projecting forward. Is our current success indicative of fundamental strength or is it built on sand and soon to dissipate because of weaknesses.

Pitchers may have a good record, even good ERAs, but if they are doing it against the odds given their peripherals it is reason to worry whether it can be sustained. Actually, I think in Garza&#039;s case it can be, and the K/BB ratio in his case may be misleading. But it still is something to keep an eye on.

Here is an example. In the second half of the 2005 season the Rays played better than .500 ball in over 70 games. Lots of people, including Piniella I think, thought the Rays were turning a corner. But any reasonable assessment of that situation had to make clear that it was a mirage. A team that had Hall, Lee, Hollins, A. Gonzalez, N. Green, Cantu, Huff, Gathright, Fossum, Baez, Carter, Harper, Hendrickson and Waechter as regulars was not on the verge of contention. It was important to be realistic about that team so that proper changes could be made.

The same holds now, except that now it is realistic to see that this team is really very good and will get better. But that does not mean that every player is promising. Garza may be (I think he is) and even Jackson may be (of him I am less confident), but if they are winning despite weak peripheral stats it should send up red flags and we should pay attention to them. That does not mean we &quot;hate&quot; them or want to be miserable. Only that we want to keep getting better and not become smug.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A.J., I agree the essential point is the win and that he pitched pretty well. I also think that the 4 walks are misleading as one was semi-intentional and the other came after he should have been out of the game, while two were in his one tough inning which he negotiated very well. Actually I posted that at DRays Bay and RJ acknowledged it.</p>
<p>But there is a reason to care. We are concerned with more than the immediate result or even the immediate situation in the standings. Those may be primary, but they are not all there is. Every team, and its fans as well, is concerned with projecting forward. Is our current success indicative of fundamental strength or is it built on sand and soon to dissipate because of weaknesses.</p>
<p>Pitchers may have a good record, even good ERAs, but if they are doing it against the odds given their peripherals it is reason to worry whether it can be sustained. Actually, I think in Garza&#8217;s case it can be, and the K/BB ratio in his case may be misleading. But it still is something to keep an eye on.</p>
<p>Here is an example. In the second half of the 2005 season the Rays played better than .500 ball in over 70 games. Lots of people, including Piniella I think, thought the Rays were turning a corner. But any reasonable assessment of that situation had to make clear that it was a mirage. A team that had Hall, Lee, Hollins, A. Gonzalez, N. Green, Cantu, Huff, Gathright, Fossum, Baez, Carter, Harper, Hendrickson and Waechter as regulars was not on the verge of contention. It was important to be realistic about that team so that proper changes could be made.</p>
<p>The same holds now, except that now it is realistic to see that this team is really very good and will get better. But that does not mean that every player is promising. Garza may be (I think he is) and even Jackson may be (of him I am less confident), but if they are winning despite weak peripheral stats it should send up red flags and we should pay attention to them. That does not mean we &#8220;hate&#8221; them or want to be miserable. Only that we want to keep getting better and not become smug.</p>
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		<title>By: A.J.</title>
		<link>http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/comment-page-1/#comment-7762</link>
		<dc:creator>A.J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 22:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/#comment-7762</guid>
		<description>I, for one, don&#039;t really care what everyone thinks on the matter.  Everybody has their own opinion, and a lot of times we are all going to agree to disagree.  I do think that we have the right to banter back and forth some, but this topic seems to be going too far.  K-BB ratios can be misleading somtimes.  Why do we care if Garza walked 4 guys last night?  HE DIDN&#039;T GIVE UP ANY RUNS, PEOPLE!!!!!  He got the win, and threw 7.1 innings of shutout baseball.  I don&#039;t care if he walks 10 people if he gets out of the jams, and keeps them off the scoreboard.  4 walks is not a terrible night.  It&#039;s not great, but in no way is it a horrid night.  Would you rather go back to the days of watching Victor Zambrano walk 6-8 people everytime he pitched?  I didn&#039;t think so!  Let&#039;s concentrate on the stat that matters the most...WINNING PERCENTAGE!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I, for one, don&#8217;t really care what everyone thinks on the matter.  Everybody has their own opinion, and a lot of times we are all going to agree to disagree.  I do think that we have the right to banter back and forth some, but this topic seems to be going too far.  K-BB ratios can be misleading somtimes.  Why do we care if Garza walked 4 guys last night?  HE DIDN&#8217;T GIVE UP ANY RUNS, PEOPLE!!!!!  He got the win, and threw 7.1 innings of shutout baseball.  I don&#8217;t care if he walks 10 people if he gets out of the jams, and keeps them off the scoreboard.  4 walks is not a terrible night.  It&#8217;s not great, but in no way is it a horrid night.  Would you rather go back to the days of watching Victor Zambrano walk 6-8 people everytime he pitched?  I didn&#8217;t think so!  Let&#8217;s concentrate on the stat that matters the most&#8230;WINNING PERCENTAGE!!!</p>
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		<title>By: bobr</title>
		<link>http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/comment-page-1/#comment-7761</link>
		<dc:creator>bobr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 22:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/#comment-7761</guid>
		<description>Fine, you don&#039;t care for the subject matter that the site addresses. I do find it consistently interesting and with varied issues, but that is a matter of taste. But this thread began with a different concern. In the initial post the complaint was not that the DRays Bay post was poorly timed or repetitive but that it was negative and that it used statistics badly. And subsequent posts misrepresented what RJ said. 

I recognize the feeling that after a win fans may not like to read about red flags. In that sense, I suppose the timing of the post is an issue for some. But that is not a criticism of the blog, just a matter of preference, and as a matter of preference, I do not need my reading to confirm my emotional state. Having exulted, I enjoy the balance of more objective analysis.

I will backtrack a bit on accepting the assertion that the blog is repetitive. Still featured on the site are posts of game commentary, Rays run differential, projection that Pena is about to break out, new ballpark debate, the Garza analysis, scouting report on Hellickson, discussion of the draft and Alvarez, observations on Price&#039;s debut and something about the Commodores appearance. In addition there are the fanposts that consider issues ranging from Loaiza and Brayan Pena&#039;s availability through a video analysis of Sonnanstine&#039;s mechanics and consideration of what to do when Aybar is ready to return. 

That is hardly repetitive, there is a great deal of in-depth analysis and opportunity to pursue such analysis (which may be the part many people don&#039;t like) and plenty of rah-rah fan optimism, although it is usually bolstered with some information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fine, you don&#8217;t care for the subject matter that the site addresses. I do find it consistently interesting and with varied issues, but that is a matter of taste. But this thread began with a different concern. In the initial post the complaint was not that the DRays Bay post was poorly timed or repetitive but that it was negative and that it used statistics badly. And subsequent posts misrepresented what RJ said. </p>
<p>I recognize the feeling that after a win fans may not like to read about red flags. In that sense, I suppose the timing of the post is an issue for some. But that is not a criticism of the blog, just a matter of preference, and as a matter of preference, I do not need my reading to confirm my emotional state. Having exulted, I enjoy the balance of more objective analysis.</p>
<p>I will backtrack a bit on accepting the assertion that the blog is repetitive. Still featured on the site are posts of game commentary, Rays run differential, projection that Pena is about to break out, new ballpark debate, the Garza analysis, scouting report on Hellickson, discussion of the draft and Alvarez, observations on Price&#8217;s debut and something about the Commodores appearance. In addition there are the fanposts that consider issues ranging from Loaiza and Brayan Pena&#8217;s availability through a video analysis of Sonnanstine&#8217;s mechanics and consideration of what to do when Aybar is ready to return. </p>
<p>That is hardly repetitive, there is a great deal of in-depth analysis and opportunity to pursue such analysis (which may be the part many people don&#8217;t like) and plenty of rah-rah fan optimism, although it is usually bolstered with some information.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/comment-page-1/#comment-7760</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 21:24:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/#comment-7760</guid>
		<description>The issue is more about the timming of the post than the fact that Garza has a 1-1 K/BB ratio. We know a 1-1 K/BB ratio is terrible, but repeating it post after post is boring and if a blog is boring does it do its job? I love reading articles about baseball, from Prospectus, etc, but constantly writing that a high K/BB is good and a low K/BB is bad is predictable and verbose. Most of baseball is watch and see if trends continue. If that is the extent of the post, what is the point of reading it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue is more about the timming of the post than the fact that Garza has a 1-1 K/BB ratio. We know a 1-1 K/BB ratio is terrible, but repeating it post after post is boring and if a blog is boring does it do its job? I love reading articles about baseball, from Prospectus, etc, but constantly writing that a high K/BB is good and a low K/BB is bad is predictable and verbose. Most of baseball is watch and see if trends continue. If that is the extent of the post, what is the point of reading it?</p>
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		<title>By: bobr</title>
		<link>http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/comment-page-1/#comment-7759</link>
		<dc:creator>bobr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 19:45:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/#comment-7759</guid>
		<description>Nobody expects a team-or player-to be perfect. Nor is anyone being unhappy. Surely people can distinguish between recognizing complexity and being a spoilsport. If you want a blog simply as a cheerleader-and I am pretty sure that is not what Scott wants-that enthuses when we do well and mopes when we do poorly-then why bother. Just go to the nearest bar and take part in the revelry or listen to talk radio.

But if you enjoy combining fan excitement with some effort to dig behind the headlines, then blogs like this one and DRays Bay should please you. The article linked here was not criticizing Garza or demeaning his performance. It was simply pointing out that he is unlikely to remain effective if he has a 1-1 K/BB ratio. I think that is probably a true statement and something to keep an eye on.

The post did not say he had a bad game. It said he had a good game but there were elements of it that are a warning sign. That is a true statement. Why do people only want to read things that confirm their emotional responses? For me, I love the glow after great wins but I also crave some understanding of what underlay the victory and what it portends for the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody expects a team-or player-to be perfect. Nor is anyone being unhappy. Surely people can distinguish between recognizing complexity and being a spoilsport. If you want a blog simply as a cheerleader-and I am pretty sure that is not what Scott wants-that enthuses when we do well and mopes when we do poorly-then why bother. Just go to the nearest bar and take part in the revelry or listen to talk radio.</p>
<p>But if you enjoy combining fan excitement with some effort to dig behind the headlines, then blogs like this one and DRays Bay should please you. The article linked here was not criticizing Garza or demeaning his performance. It was simply pointing out that he is unlikely to remain effective if he has a 1-1 K/BB ratio. I think that is probably a true statement and something to keep an eye on.</p>
<p>The post did not say he had a bad game. It said he had a good game but there were elements of it that are a warning sign. That is a true statement. Why do people only want to read things that confirm their emotional responses? For me, I love the glow after great wins but I also crave some understanding of what underlay the victory and what it portends for the future.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/comment-page-1/#comment-7758</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 19:32:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viewfromthebleachers.com/raysoflight/2008/05/24/rays-2-orioles-0-pitching-pitching-pitching-and-a-special-comment/#comment-7758</guid>
		<description>I agree, that website is not fun to read at all. If a blog can ruin the feeling after watching a great win, does that blog even serve a purpose? What is the point of a blog if its all about the writers and not about the team? To say Garza had a bad game is pointless and more a reflection of the terrible post of a blog than a terrible game from Garza.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, that website is not fun to read at all. If a blog can ruin the feeling after watching a great win, does that blog even serve a purpose? What is the point of a blog if its all about the writers and not about the team? To say Garza had a bad game is pointless and more a reflection of the terrible post of a blog than a terrible game from Garza.</p>
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