Comments on: The Cubs Made a Mistake with Harden http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2009/12/01/the-cubs-made-a-mistake-with-harden/ A Chicago Cubs Blog and Fan Site Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:11:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Doc Raker http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2009/12/01/the-cubs-made-a-mistake-with-harden/#comment-17493 Doc Raker Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:50:50 +0000 http://viewfromthebleachers.com/?p=8202#comment-17493 It is a moot point for but the sake of discussion let's consider the 5 inning starter coupled with a bull pen partner. You now have 2 roster spots for essentially 1 spot so you lose a roster spot in essence, you may even be forced to carry and extra pitcher and reduce your bench. Plus you need to pay that bullpen partner so your real cost for the starter is the two salaries, not just the $M's to Harden. I didn't like paying Maddux when he was a 5 inning pitcher at the end of his career, I thought the Giants overpaid for R Johnson last year and I would prefer not to pay Harden $M's for his 5 inning starts. His game against the Phillies last year in which he threw 5 perfect innings and then all hell broke loose for Cubs lose is his MO in my scouting book. It is a moot point for but the sake of discussion let’s consider the 5 inning starter coupled with a bull pen partner. You now have 2 roster spots for essentially 1 spot so you lose a roster spot in essence, you may even be forced to carry and extra pitcher and reduce your bench. Plus you need to pay that bullpen partner so your real cost for the starter is the two salaries, not just the $M’s to Harden.

I didn’t like paying Maddux when he was a 5 inning pitcher at the end of his career, I thought the Giants overpaid for R Johnson last year and I would prefer not to pay Harden $M’s for his 5 inning starts.

His game against the Phillies last year in which he threw 5 perfect innings and then all hell broke loose for Cubs lose is his MO in my scouting book.

]]> By: dat_cubfan_daver http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2009/12/01/the-cubs-made-a-mistake-with-harden/#comment-17487 dat_cubfan_daver Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:05:18 +0000 http://viewfromthebleachers.com/?p=8202#comment-17487 If you go by Fangraphs' assessment, Harden was overpaid this past season, but only slightly - he gave the team $8.2 MM in production for $ 9 MM. I hate to sound like I'm making excuses for the guy, but I think he had some pretty bum luck on at least a few fly balls. Still, again going by Fangraphs, Rich gave the A's and Cubs combined $20 MM in production in '08 for a mere $4.8 MM in salary. So these things have a way of evening out. The five-innings thing doesn't bother me that much either. I've always advocated simply partnering Rich up with a long-man going into each start so there's no "surprise" wear and tear on your bullpen. You simply tell Sean Marshall or whoever to prepare for that game like a start and plan on going two to three innings. That puts you just as deep into the game as if Harden himself had gone six to seven innings. Anyway, these are all moot points as it's looking almost certain that Rich Harden won't be in a Cubs uniform next season. If you go by Fangraphs’ assessment, Harden was overpaid this past season, but only slightly – he gave the team $8.2 MM in production for $ 9 MM. I hate to sound like I’m making excuses for the guy, but I think he had some pretty bum luck on at least a few fly balls.

Still, again going by Fangraphs, Rich gave the A’s and Cubs combined $20 MM in production in ‘08 for a mere $4.8 MM in salary. So these things have a way of evening out.

The five-innings thing doesn’t bother me that much either. I’ve always advocated simply partnering Rich up with a long-man going into each start so there’s no “surprise” wear and tear on your bullpen. You simply tell Sean Marshall or whoever to prepare for that game like a start and plan on going two to three innings. That puts you just as deep into the game as if Harden himself had gone six to seven innings.

Anyway, these are all moot points as it’s looking almost certain that Rich Harden won’t be in a Cubs uniform next season.

]]> By: Doc Raker http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2009/12/01/the-cubs-made-a-mistake-with-harden/#comment-17485 Doc Raker Fri, 04 Dec 2009 02:44:10 +0000 http://viewfromthebleachers.com/?p=8202#comment-17485 Yes, $12M is way to much for a 5 inning starter, he was over paid last year at $9M. Yes, $12M is way to much for a 5 inning starter, he was over paid last year at $9M.

]]> By: dat_cubfan_daver http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2009/12/01/the-cubs-made-a-mistake-with-harden/#comment-17483 dat_cubfan_daver Thu, 03 Dec 2009 16:57:27 +0000 http://viewfromthebleachers.com/?p=8202#comment-17483 You make some strong points - and, for the record, I'd love to see Rich Harden stay a Cub, too. But, unfortunately, it really appears that the bottom line in this situation is Hendry didn't want to risk Harden accepting arbitration - which Rich likely would have given his relative success here and comfort with the Cubs training staff. If he was awarded $12 million, we could all pretty much forget about the team making any further additions for the rest of the off-season. In other words, we'd probably be looking at Sam Fuld as our starting centerfielder. Should Hendry have traded Harden to the Twins at the deadline? Maybe. But if the Twins were offering only warm bodies that weren't likely to see major league action or weren't better than guys we already have in the minors, I don't really think it makes much difference. You make some strong points – and, for the record, I’d love to see Rich Harden stay a Cub, too. But, unfortunately, it really appears that the bottom line in this situation is Hendry didn’t want to risk Harden accepting arbitration – which Rich likely would have given his relative success here and comfort with the Cubs training staff.

If he was awarded $12 million, we could all pretty much forget about the team making any further additions for the rest of the off-season. In other words, we’d probably be looking at Sam Fuld as our starting centerfielder.

Should Hendry have traded Harden to the Twins at the deadline? Maybe. But if the Twins were offering only warm bodies that weren’t likely to see major league action or weren’t better than guys we already have in the minors, I don’t really think it makes much difference.

]]> By: Doc Raker http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2009/12/01/the-cubs-made-a-mistake-with-harden/#comment-17476 Doc Raker Thu, 03 Dec 2009 00:24:11 +0000 http://viewfromthebleachers.com/?p=8202#comment-17476 I am sure the Cubs know what Harden is asking for and would be asking for in arbitration. I do not like 5 inning starters, it over taxes the bullpen and leaves the bullpen 4 innings to blow the game. I especially do not like a 5 inning starter that wants to be paid like he is Fergie Jenkins in complete games, see Maddux, G and Johnson, R of recent. Harden could be a dominate closer and could make a lot of money being a stellar closer, alas, but he can make more being a starter so he and his agent will find some sucker to overpay him as a starter. Once he is overpaid, then he may consider closing, but only if he gets a starters contract first. That is why the Cubs did the right thing in not offering him arbitration. They would have to overpay him. I am sure the Cubs know what Harden is asking for and would be asking for in arbitration. I do not like 5 inning starters, it over taxes the bullpen and leaves the bullpen 4 innings to blow the game. I especially do not like a 5 inning starter that wants to be paid like he is Fergie Jenkins in complete games, see Maddux, G and Johnson, R of recent.

Harden could be a dominate closer and could make a lot of money being a stellar closer, alas, but he can make more being a starter so he and his agent will find some sucker to overpay him as a starter. Once he is overpaid, then he may consider closing, but only if he gets a starters contract first.

That is why the Cubs did the right thing in not offering him arbitration. They would have to overpay him.

]]> By: Seymour Butts http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2009/12/01/the-cubs-made-a-mistake-with-harden/#comment-17475 Seymour Butts Wed, 02 Dec 2009 18:13:40 +0000 http://viewfromthebleachers.com/?p=8202#comment-17475 I too would like R Harden back on the team. In years past, we have gone to and come out of spring training with an abundance of pitching, yet wound up a few months later lacking. YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH PITCHING (please excuse the child like over use of all caps). Being a GM is being a gambler, If Harden can be had cheaper than the almost certain raise he would have gotten thru arbitration, I'm sure Jim will be bidding. If he gets a raise from some one else, the Cubs were not going to pay more anyway, and Jim loses the draft picks. I too would like R Harden back on the team. In years past, we have gone to and come out of spring training with an abundance of pitching, yet wound up a few months later lacking. YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH PITCHING (please excuse the child like over use of all caps).
Being a GM is being a gambler, If Harden can be had cheaper than the almost certain raise he would have gotten thru arbitration, I’m sure Jim will be bidding. If he gets a raise from some one else, the Cubs were not going to pay more anyway, and Jim loses the draft picks.

]]> By: BuckeyeCub http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2009/12/01/the-cubs-made-a-mistake-with-harden/#comment-17474 BuckeyeCub Wed, 02 Dec 2009 09:57:10 +0000 http://viewfromthebleachers.com/?p=8202#comment-17474 So you're telling me that when the Twinkies claimed him and we had a chance to get something in return, get some money off the books, and do the White Sox a dis-service, the Cubs said no because they wanted those draft picks in the winter, but now we won't get anything at all if we lose him? BRILLIANT! Just like how we could have had Miguel Tejada for Mark Prior or Brian Roberts for Felix Pie, Rich Hill, and Ronny Cedeno, but instead we got garbage for them. Idiotic. Give Harden arbitration, and if he accepts, let him be back on the team. Something people don't realize is that Hendry has never gone to a hearing with any player, ever. So given that track record, I think a deal would have been hammered out. Gregg, not giving arbitration was a good idea, he would probably accept it So you’re telling me that when the Twinkies claimed him and we had a chance to get something in return, get some money off the books, and do the White Sox a dis-service, the Cubs said no because they wanted those draft picks in the winter, but now we won’t get anything at all if we lose him? BRILLIANT! Just like how we could have had Miguel Tejada for Mark Prior or Brian Roberts for Felix Pie, Rich Hill, and Ronny Cedeno, but instead we got garbage for them. Idiotic. Give Harden arbitration, and if he accepts, let him be back on the team. Something people don’t realize is that Hendry has never gone to a hearing with any player, ever. So given that track record, I think a deal would have been hammered out. Gregg, not giving arbitration was a good idea, he would probably accept it

]]> By: MoondogKP http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2009/12/01/the-cubs-made-a-mistake-with-harden/#comment-17473 MoondogKP Wed, 02 Dec 2009 03:15:49 +0000 http://viewfromthebleachers.com/?p=8202#comment-17473 I think the main reason Harden didn't get an arbitration offer is the raise potential. The budget's still tight with MB weighing things down and those awful back-loaded deals starting to pick up the bucks. Plus, the Cubs can re-sign him still without a floor on what they could offer him. I'm not sure Harden with his history is getting more than a one-year, seven mil deal. Arbitration, if he takes it, locks you in at almost double that. Economically, not wise at all. I think the main reason Harden didn’t get an arbitration offer is the raise potential. The budget’s still tight with MB weighing things down and those awful back-loaded deals starting to pick up the bucks. Plus, the Cubs can re-sign him still without a floor on what they could offer him. I’m not sure Harden with his history is getting more than a one-year, seven mil deal. Arbitration, if he takes it, locks you in at almost double that. Economically, not wise at all.

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