A recent thread once again brought up the greatness of Ryan Theriot. I have been meaning to do something like this for awhile, so I guess it is time.
Below is a look at where Ryan Theriot stands offensively and defensively in comparison to other every day shortstops in the National League. The numbers below will pretty clearly show that Ryan Theriot, is, in fact, below average both offensively and defensively.
Now… this does not mean that I dislike Ryan Theriot, or that he does not have place on this Cubs team. I believe that he does, and has played a good role for the Cubs. I just believe that many, many people extremely overrate what he brings to this team, and I show why.
Defensively
Out of 11 qualifying NL SS’s, Theriot is:
- 7th in Fielding %
- 11th in Range Factor
- 8th in Zone Rating
- 10th in RZR (which has 12 qualifiers)
- 12th in OOZ, which doesn’t have qualifiers
Baseball Prospectus gives Theriot a 98 in their Rate2 stat, where 100 is average.
Offensively
Theriot has an OPS+ of 93. That, by definition, is below average. For those of you who do now know, OPS+ is “OPS normalized for both the park and the league the player played in,: with 100 being the average. Out of 9 qualifying NL SS’s, Theriot is:
- 8th in OPS
- 9th in total bases
- 7th in runs created
- 8th in Gross Production Average
- 10th (of 11) in Equivalent Average
- 8th (of 11) in EQR
- 10th (0f 11) in RAR
- 10th (0f 11) in RAP
- 8th (of 11) in RARP
- 9th in VORP
Theriot is 7th in total Win Shares (batting & fielding combined), and 7th in batting and 9th in fielding. Of course, a player on a winning team will have more win shares. Now, one commentator thought that it would be good to compare Derek Jeter and Ryan Theriot. I am not going to touch their defenses, because they are both at the bottom defensively, but lets look offensively at their numbers this year. Of course, it is important to remember that Derek Jeter is having his worst year since 1997.
(“winners” in bold)
- OPS:Theriot - 737, Jeter – 773
- OPS+: Theriot – 93, Jeter - 106
- Runs Created: Theriot – 75, Jeter – 88
- Gross Production Average: Theriot - .253, Jeter - .269
- Win Shares: Theriot -13 , Jeter - 16
- EQA: Theriot - .260, Jeter - .275
- EQR: Theriot – 71.8, Jeter – 85.2
- RAR: Theriot – 19.1, Jeter – 30.6
- RAP: Theriot – 4, Jeter – 14.6
- RARP: Theriot – 22.8, Jeter – 34.1
- Theriot - 25.2, Jeter - 38.9
Theriot, in his best year, is nowhere close to Jeter, who is having his worst year of his career. Jeter is pretty significantly better in each category.
Let me be very clear. I do not dislike Ryan Theriot. I just do not think that he is a great baseball player, or an All-Star, or the Cubs MVP, or anything like that. He is a role player, and an average one at best. And he simply does not compare to Derek Jeter.
Oh … and more fun one. People around here hate Derrek Lee, mostly for reasons not known to me. But one reason is because Derrek Lee’s propensity for double plays this year. Would you believe it if I told you that Ryan Theriot grounds into double plays at a higher rate (18.1%) in double play situations than Derrek Lee does (17.0%).
But go ahead and keep bashing Derrek Lee and praising Ryan Theriot. Maybe my next post will be comparing those two.
NOTE: If you would like explanations/definitions of these stats, go to:
- B-R (OPS+)
- THT (Win Shares, Runs Created, Gross Production Average)
- Baseball Prospectus (EQA, EQR, RAR, RAP, RARP)
- ESPN (Fielding %, Range factor, Zone rating)
dave,
I have been sitting here for the post that you promised would show me that Theriot was below average, and all you can do is present a bunch of ratings, most of which I will have to do research to see what they mean?????? You couldn’t do any better than that, like some real, old school baseball stats?
Well, anyway, to go back to your original post, you stated the following:
“Theriot is a below average hitter, a poor defensive player, and below average base runner.”
If you recall, I said that I wasn’t going to argue the defensive side of things because I had seen the ratings posted on this blog before, however I did say that I, personally, that he was at least an average SS in the field. I also said that I agreed with you that Theriot had way to low of a success rate in SB’s. My point of contention was that I did NOT agree with the statement that Theriot is a below average hitter…..that was the only point that I was contending.
And, I still must disagree with your point of view. I know that sabremetrics, hocus pocus, Billy Beane stats have their place in today’s game, but you also have to look at “old school” numbers, and as I said before, there is no way you can tell me that our SS who ranks in top 10 at his position in all of Major League Baseball in Runs, Hits, Walks, On Base Percentage, and Batting Average is, as you said, “A below average hitter”.
To reiterate for those that may have missed the last post………
Out of all MLB SS’s with at least 350 AB’s (24 total players), Theriot is:
9th in Runs Scored (82)
9th in Hits (173)
2nd in BB (69)
17th in K’s (58)
5th in SB (22)
2nd in OBP (.381)
3rd in BA (.304)
I have never claimed that Theriot is the next coming of Ozzie Smith. I have never claimed that Theriot is the next Vince Coleman. I have never claimed that he should have been named as an All Star.
However, I will claim that Theriot is NOT, as dave says, “A below average hitter.”
Theriot is a good player who does exactly what this team asks of him and what this team needs him to do. So, dave, to say, as you did, that “he isn’t very good”, I think is quite a stretch also, and I feel that most of the posters on this board would agree with me.
But every Cub fan is entitled to their opinion, regardless of how wrong it is, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
“A bunch of ratings” that happen to be very good metrics in rating players. They are not perfect - no stat is - but they are good. And sorry that you have to do a little research - I wasn’t about to give the explanation of each stat in the post.
Right… because anything new is bad? I can tell you right off the bat that it is going to be pretty difficult to have a discussion on this if you are going to write off any new ratings as “hocus pocus.”
Okay… then lets look at ALL “old school” number intead of a random sample, and lets understand where some of these “old school” numbers fit in context.
First, it is somewhat silly to compare Theriot to SS’s who have been injured or simply do not play every day. Using “qualifying” rather than 350 at-bats will give a better comparison. It is also important to remember that these statistics do not occur in a vacuum, and are impacted by park factors, league, and team offense.
Second, runs are a very team dependent statistic. A player on a better offense will score more runs.
Third, I do like that Theriot has a decent batting average, but he also has a BABIP (batting average on balls in play) this year of .335, which is somewhat unsustainable. The league average for BABIP is right around .300, and this varies little regardless of ability. So a .335 BABIP means that his .304 BA is somewhat due to luck.
Fourth, Theriot’s SB totals are decent, but his SB % is awful, and is arguably hurting the team with his base stealing rather than helping due to his low %.
Fifth, I like that Theriot is walking a lot - that is a good thing.
Sixth, having a lot of hits is nice. Unfortunately all but 24 of Theriot’s hits are singles. I think that we can all agree that singles are the least valuable hit, right? So I find it interesting that you ignored some other “old school” stats”. Since you are using MLB numbers rather than NL numbers, I will do the same:
- Doubles: 24th (19)
- Triples: 7th (4, and tied with 6 others)
- Home Runs: 40th (1)
- Total Based: 25th (27 RBI)
- SLUG: 15th (.355, and out of only 18 qualifying)
- OPS: 11th (.738, out of 18 qualifying)
- Total Bases: 14th
I am not sure why you ignore all of those stats.
Other people did, and I wasn’t just replying to you.
Well, I still believe, based on the numbers, that he is below average. He ranks in the bottom half of SS’s. Would it be better if I said he is average, at best?
Doing what your team needs you to do is different than being a good player. I NEVER said that Theriot did not do what his team needed him to do, did I?
Look… Ryan Theriot is a singles hitter. So he is going to hit a lot of singles, have a decent batting average, especially when he gets lucky, but that is about it. He doesn’t hit for ANY power. His SLUG is LOWER than his OBP.
Now, that does not mean that Theriot does not have a place/role on the Cubs. I think he does, and I have made that very clear. But I also think that he is probably the Cubs worst or second worst every day player.
Nice post Dave. I for one, like Theriot, but think fans have been drinking too much Kool Aid over the guy. Let’s not forget he hits in front of D Lee, which is going to get you a lot of fastballs. And with singles, which he has a propensity for, gives the guy behind you more hitting in to DP possibilities.
I’ve been lamenting all season that the hatred for D Lee is inexcusible. He’s having another D Lee year, with the exception of the douple play balls.
FWIW, here are the players on the Cubs that I think are better (non-pitchers):
Lee
DeRosa
ARam
Soto
Soriano
Edmonds
Johnson
I think an argument could be made that Fukudome is a better player than Theriot, but I am not completely convinced about who Fukudome is as an offensive player yet. I also think that Cedeno, if given a full year, would produce better numbers, and play better defense, than Theriot would.
Again - I think that Theriot has a role. But Matt, I think you stated it well:
First of all Dave, no one I’ve ever talked to has brought up the “greatness of ryan Theriot”. I’m pretty sure the general consensus is that he’s a solid ballplayer…and given that we have this argument every week I don’t think it’s accurate to say that he is “overrated”.
Now, I admire your use of SABRmetrics…but come on now. You cannot use OPS or OPS+ for these types of players because both of these stats are LARGELY skewed in favor of slugging percentage, not on-base percentage. So that comparison isn’t fair.
Furthermore, some of the arguments here are unbelievable.
“Second, runs are a very team dependent statistic. A player on a better offense will score more runs.” Woops, sorry Ryan…we’re going to blame you for playing on a good team.
“Third, I do like that Theriot has a decent batting average, but he also has a BABIP (batting average on balls in play) this year of .335, which is somewhat unsustainable. The league average for BABIP is right around .300, and this varies little regardless of ability. So a .335 BABIP means that his .304 BA is somewhat due to luck.” Sorry Ryan, you had good luck…and as we know luck doesn’t factor in AT ALL in baseball. Nobody has EVER received fortunate bounces, so it’s only natural to crucify you for it.
“I think that we can all agree that singles are the least valuable hit, right?” Woops, sorry, I didn’t know that singles were a bad thing…let’s blame Theriot for another player bouncing into a DP because that single just wasn’t good enough dammit!!
“Look… Ryan Theriot is a singles hitter. So he is going to hit a lot of singles, have a decent batting average, especially when he gets lucky, but that is about it. He doesn’t hit for ANY power. His SLUG is LOWER than his OBP.” A) There is nothing wrong with a singles hitter B) It’s because of people being on base that your man crush D-Lee can drive in runs C)WE DON’T NEED HIM TO HIT FOR POWER! There is enough power in the lineup, we need Theriot to get on base. And since he doesn’t do that we should beat on him relentlessly…oh wait…he does get on base.
Okay - that was a lot of rambling, it all boils down to this: Never have I met or talked to a Cubs fan who thought that Ryan Theriot was the greatest player on the team, or an amazing shortstop, or an incredible talent. I DO NOT KNOW WHERE THE COMPULSION TO KNOCK THERIOT DOWN A PEG COMES FROM because I have seen or heard no one elevate him to a ridiculous level. I’ve yet to see one of the afore-mentioned Kool-Aid drinkers! He gets on base at a high rate. And since (believe it or not) there still is NO CONCLUSIVE AND UNDENIABLE STAT that shows fielding prowess (I’m sorry Dave - but there is not), I will have to go with what I’ve seen and say that he is a slightly below average fielder. He doesn’t need to hit for power. He doesn’t need to put up great numbers in every SABRmetric category (I agree that some SABR theories are important to baseball, but some are overkill). Overall, he is a solid player and a talented player.
Not great. Not below average. Solid. Can we all get together on that?
It was sarcasm.
No… that is not what I said. Don’t put words on my mouth. Runs are a team dependent stat. Unless player is hitting is driving himself in every time he scores, he is reliant on his team to drive him. Ryan Theriot is an even GREATER example of this because he doesn’t hit for any power, so he is MORE reliant on his team around him to drive him in. We don’t blame him for that, but we need to understand his run totals in that context.
Huh? Where did I say that? Obviously luck factors into baseball - all the time. I never denied that. But again, we need to be able to understand how luck can impact one’s statistics if we are going to use them to prove a point.
Please point out where I said there was something wrong with a singles hitter.
You are correct.
Where did I say that Theriot needed to hit for power? I am not sure why you are arguing against things that were never said.
I am not sure why saying that Theriot isn’t a very good baseball player equates with “beat on him relentlessly.”
I AM NOT SURE WHY YOU NEED TO USE CAPS. But I am not trying to knock Theriot down. I am trying to get people to look at him critically. I have said very clearly that I think that Theriot has a role on this team, have I not?
Which I have already acknowledged. And that is valuable. But that is also only one part of the game. An important part, but only one part.
What have you seen? Because what I have seen is poor range, a really weak arm, and decent hands. Do you disagree?
Why do people get so defensive about Ryan Theriot?
All you have to do is search VFTB for past posts. There were quite a few heated debates on Theriot early in the year, and last year.
I like him. He’s plys the part he’s supposed to. He’s a “nothing flashy, get the job done” type of guy. Just what we need. I just don’t agree with the over the top man crushes on the guy.
Mark DeRosa is much prettier.
And much better!
Dave
Why don’t we get rid of the Runs statistic all together then. Every 1 and 2 hitter in the league has to depend on someone to drive them in. So if we are putting that in context, just know that Theriot is not alone. EVERY top of the order hitter has to have someone drive him in.
Luck does indeed factor in, but I don’t think we can identify every instance in which it does. A double that bounces off the third base bag is easy, but home runs can be luck, too. My point is, we cannot correctly identify what is luck and what is not, so I wouldn’t feel comfortable using a statistic that is based on luck.
The singles portion came from Matt’s post where he said because of Theriot’s singles the men behind him had a greater chance of hitting into double plays, so more directed towards Matt. Do we really think it’s fair to a player to get on him for doing his job. And no, Matt did not say “I think being a singles hitter is bad”, but what was inferred was that being a singles hitter has negative effects, which is arguable.
Dave, you posted this:
“Sixth, having a lot of hits is nice. Unfortunately all but 24 of Theriot’s hits are singles. I think that we can all agree that singles are the least valuable hit, right? So I find it interesting that you ignored some other “old school” stats”. Since you are using MLB numbers rather than NL numbers, I will do the same:
- Doubles: 24th (19)
- Triples: 7th (4, and tied with 6 others)
- Home Runs: 40th (1)
- Total Based: 25th (27 RBI)
- SLUG: 15th (.355, and out of only 18 qualifying)
- OPS: 11th (.738, out of 18 qualifying)
- Total Bases: 14th
I am not sure why you ignore all of those stats.”
That is why I made the ‘Theriot doesn’t need to hit for power argument’. You used these stats to show that Theriot’s numbers don’t measure up in these categories. By doing that, you imply that Theriot is less than other players because he is not doing well in those particular statistics. However, those are all power stats, I’m trying to say that those stats have very little relevance for what we need him to do. So, while you didn’t say, “Ryan Theriot needs to hit for more power!”, by using those particular numbers you implied that Theriot was less of a player because he didn’t perform well in power categories.
Saying that he isn’t a very good baseball player is not beating on him relentlessly. But when we have these posts every other week saying that he is not a very good player (despite evidence to the contrary) it becomes absurd and yes, relentless.
I use caps to make certain text STAND OUT. Not that hard a concept. See, I can be snooty too. I think we have been looking at him critically. Very critically. In fact, we have this discussion all the time. Everyone has given the situation enough thought, believe me. Just because after we come to a different conclusion than you after we’re done thinking about it doesn’t make us wrong or anything less than you. You have said he has a role on the team - so does the beer guy. What I’m trying to get you to concede is that he is a good ballplayer.
I’ve yet to see him cost the Cubs a game due to his defense. Sorry, I just haven’t seen it. Not great range, not a great arm, decent hands…but it hasn’t cost the Cubs much this year.
I don’t get defensive about particular players, I get defensive about arguments that I think are flawed.
Yes, Mark DeRosa is much better
My only point is that he is NOT a below average player. He is a sold player. Apparently that’s a man crush, Matt?
Could one say he’s a gamer?
I didn’t say you had a mancrush, but there are others out there that do. I don’t fall for such superficial quests of love. I need numbers and production, before I fall for someone as pretty as Grady Sizemore.
Oh, you mean numbers like VORP?? Maybe we should talk about Dave’s mancrush on Bill James…
As a tool to analyze players? Maybe.
I agree. We cannot identify every instance of luck, but I am not sure how that is relevant. We can use something like BABIP to get a relative idea on how lucky (or unlucky) a player has been.
Then you shouldn’t be comfortable using batting average.
But he is a lesser player than those other players. That doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have a role on the team. But that does mean that overall, he is a less valuable player. It is pretty simple - doubles are more valuable than singles, triples are more valuable than doubles, and home runs are more valuable than triples.
Well… this is the first post we have had about Theriot, I believe. And the Theriot discussions in the comments almost always start with people praising Theriot, not with people bashing Theriot.
I won’t concede that, because I do not think that it is true. He is a solid role player, and, in my opinion and what I believe is supported by the stats, he falls below average both offensively and defensively.
Just because it has not cost the Cubs much this year does not mean that he is good, or even average.
Once again… I have said this very clearly. Theriot has a role on this team. My point of this post is not to say that he should not be on the Cubs, or even that he should not be playing (though I do question that). My point is to critically examine Theriot as a player, and how he fits among other everyday SS’s in baseball.
Heh… I knew this would piss some people off.
BABIP won’t work, we don’t understand what ‘luck’ factors in. We can’t identify it in most cases. We don’t understand all the variables involved.
If you’ll notice, I haven’t used batting average.
I agree with your hit value system, but it’s not his job to hit home runs, so I’m not going to get on his back about power numbers. Like you said, he has a role to play on the ball club. I think it is an important role and I think he fills it well. A player who fulfills his role well is a good player.
Yes, poorly constructed arguments piss me off
Disregard the last sentence of post #16…that was pretty stupid.
You don’t need to know all the variables involved to be able to use something. BABIP, like all stats, is not perfect. But it gives us a good idea of a player’s “luck.” For the most part, a batter’s BABIP hovers right around .300. Anything higher tends to mean that it is good luck. Hits are falling in for that player. Anything lower tends to mean the player is having bad luck. Hits just are not falling in. Now, there are exceptions, but there is little reason to believe that Theriot will be able to maintain a .335 BABIP for his career. Put is this way. Theriot has had a 20% line drive % both this year and last year. But last year his BABIP was .289 and this year is .335. Which basically screams, really loudly, LUCK!!!!
I am not getting on his back. I am pointing out that he is not as good as people think he is.
Me too.
Except you haven’t shown that my argument is poorly constructed. You have only shown that Theriot fulfills his role well.
Fulfilling a role well and being a good player are two very different things.
BTW… what do people think about Ichiro?
This may surprise some people. And I bring it up because Theriot and Ichiro are similar types of players. Except Theriot doesn’t have the speed, baserunning, or, arguably, the defensive ability that Ichiro has.
20% line drive percentage? That’s fairly subjective isn’t it? And why does Theriot’s BABIP have to be luck? He often has a big whole on the right side of the infield and hits the ball through it for a lot of singles. That’s more talent than luck, and helps his BABIP. So why can’t it be that his BABIP has improved from last year to this year because of an improved approach at the plate?
Say what you wan’t, Dave. I don’t care if you think it makes me intellectually inferior (because clearly you are the smartest guy here because you’re always right) - a guy who hits over .300 with an OBP of .390 at the big league level is a good player. End of story.
Because that almost never happens. BABIP almost always hovers around .300 in the majors. I didn’t make it up.
There are some exceptions, mostly for people who hit the ball really hard (i.e. not Ryan Theriot).
Huh?
Often? Do you mean because someone is on first? He has 164 plates appearances with a runner on first (not including bases loaded), which is less than 25% of his total plate appearances.
One element noone mentions: I think Theriot’s value to the Cubs increases greatly when you consider that he is cheap, and under team control for another 4 seasons. Not everyone can be a big earner like A-Ram, Lee, or Soriano. You can’t have superstars at every position, if you want to have the dollars to fill other holes.
This is Theriot’s real value to the Cubs. He can fill a starting spot, and allow us to use $ elsewhere.
Why is everyone so obsessed with numbers? And what does the whole “kool aid” thing mean? Why can’t you just observe and evaluate the players using a little common sense? What does Ryan Theriot contribute to the team? Well, he’s fast, he DOES get a lot of base hits, and if there is a play to be made at shortstop he will more than likely make it. He does his job. He has heart. Reading this reminds me of what I hate about sports-it’s all about numbers and show me the money. What happened to the game? To all you number heads out there who want to whine and cry about Ryan Theriot’s supposedly poor numbers, go ahead if it makes you feel better. I don’t really think it matters to him-he plays because he loves the game. It’s really sad that there aren’t more players like Ryan Theriot who play for love of the game. I’d rather watch him play his heart out and still not measure up to your standards than I would to watch Soriano exert not even half the effort of Theriot and still miss a catchable ball. Ryan Theriot is consistent, solid, dependable, and above all talented. Take tonight’s game at Miller Park for example- I support all my Cubs players, but Theriot was one of the few out there on the field that didn’t play like a five year old who’s never laid eyes on a baseball.
Because numbers help us understand the contributions of a player.
Well… I would rather be a fan of a good team. And a team full of Sorianos would be better than a team full of Theriots.
Yea… i agree with that. His cheap price does make him more valuable.
All comparisons, sabremetrics, etc., etc. aside, I think that everyone agrees that Theriot does play his role on this team well. He is an inexpensive player, which does add to his value to the Cubs. I also actually agree with (post #4) dave in that, I too feel that if Cedeno was given a full season at SS, he could very well produce better numbers and play better defense than Theriot. Check back through all the posts at VFTB, I have always been a Cedeno backer.
But two points to make here:
#1 (from post #22)
“So why can’t it be that his BABIP has improved from last year to this year because of an improved approach at the plate?”
Because that almost never happens. BABIP almost always hovers around .300 in the majors. I didn’t make it up.
There are some exceptions, mostly for people who hit the ball really hard (i.e. not Ryan Theriot).
********”That almost never happens…….There are some exceptions, mostly for people who hit the ball really hard.” Almost……mostly……So your saying that there might be a chance, even a slim chance, that Theriot’s BABIP has increased because of an improved approach at the plate. Yes!
#2
Back to my original point of contention, and what I said was only that I did not agree that “Theriot is a below average hitter”. There are many below average hitters in MLB, but to say that a guy with a .304 BA and a .385 OBP over the course of 575 AB’s this year is below average….to imply that he has just been extra lucky this year…..well, I can’t buy that. And no Matt, I do not have a man crush on Theriot….I don’t get into the whole man crush thing!
I think, however, that we can ALL agree that Theriot is a below average power hitter!
Joe, you have been conspicuously absent from this whole discussion.
Dave,
Would you say that a player with the following numbers is a “below average hitter”?
.267 BA VS. Theriot .304 BA
.322 OBP .385 OBP
.401 SLG .357 SLG
.723 OPS .742 OPS
Sorry, the spacing got messed up in the above post, but the second set of #’s in each line are Theriot’s for this year. My bad!
I think that it would depend on the greater context on when and how the numbers occurred.
Because Ryan Theriot has an OPS+ of 94 this year, while Brooks Robinson had a career OPS of 104.
Because OPS+ adjusts for both park factors and league factors (and in turn time period), it helps us understand that Brooks Robinson was a significantly better hitter than Theriot has been this year.
Again, OPS and OPS+ statistics are heavily skewed to favor power hitters.
And again, that is because power hitters are more valuable than singles hitters.
And again, that doesn’t mean that singles hitters can’t be good players.
I guess. But it does mean that typically singles hitters won’t be as good as power hitters.
The Cubs have done so well this year because they have played as a team, a winning team. Each player has made a contribution that has helped to take the team this far. You can tell when you are watching a game that they are all working together toward the same goal. We have our power hitters and we have our “clutch” hitters and we have the hitters that produce consistent, qualilty at bats that drive players home. Soriano can hit a homerun and Ryan Theriot and others can hit a single to drive home runners in scoring postion. They both score runs. I don’t think we want a team with all power hitters-they do have cold streaks and what if they all go cold at once? We need a mix of talent where everyone contributes and that is what the cubs have had this year. As far as numbers helping to understand the contributions of the players, why not just watch the game and see it for yourself? You want to be a fan of a good team? If you are a Cub fan you are a fan of a good team.
Not really… the Cubs have done so well this year because they have had the best offense (due to having the best collection of hitters) and one of the best pitching staffs (due to having one of the best collection of pitchers). It has little to do with playing as a team. It has to do with producing.
Well… being that Ryan Theriot only has 38 RBI, he doesn’t do that very often. Actually, his numbers with runners in scoring position are pretty awful: .261/.386/.303 OPS: .689
He still has a good OBP, but his batting average is bad and his SLUG is awful.
Singles hitters have cold streaks too.
I do watch the games. But eyes are not always honest, and our heart is even less so. Numbers are much more objective than our hearts and eyes.
I know… a very good team. But that does not mean that we cannot talk about good (or not good) individual players are.
I have come to the conclusion that dave is one of those people who:
A. Like to argue just for the sake of making an argument.
B. Can never admit that maybe they are wrong about a statement they have made.
C. Will beat a dead horse into oblivion.
Sometimes… but this thread isn’t an example of that.
I have no problem admitting that I may be wrong.
How is it me beating a dead horse, when others also continue the conversation?
I have no idea why you need resort to personal attacks rather than discussion the topic at hand.
Not resorting to a personal attack…..
A. You said “sometimes”
B. I have never seen you admit to maybe being wrong about any of your stances you have taken in all of the different discussions throughout posts on VFTB. I was just making an observation of what I have seen.
C. I should have clarified more….sorry….but in your arguments on Theriot being below average, you continue to refer to his power numbers. Both myself and others have already agreed (who couldn’t) that Theriot does have poor power numbers. But you continue to reference SLG, OPS, OPS+, etc……..numbers that are skewed to favor power hitters……therefore beating the dead horse.
Also, I would never break one of Joe’s Ten Commandments….just another reason that I wasn’t resorting to a personal attack.
You know, I have to agree with MGAD. You remind me of my daughter-you’d argue with a brick wall just to argue. Have you listened to any of the player or coach interviews? They have said as well that all of the Cubs players have played well together as a team and that all the players have made a contribution. Is Theriot a power hitter? No, and I never said he was. All I’ve been trying to say is that he doesn’t deserve to be graded on a scale tailored to the power hitters. FACT: He’s a part of the team. FACT: He has a good camaraderie with his teammates and they like him. FACT: Lou has praised him multiple times this year for his efforts. If you’re going to support a team, support the team. If you want to build yourself a “perfect team” then go do it instead of picking apart the players of the team you proclaim to support.
I tend not to take any of these stats too much to heart unless they are absolutely phenomenal or painfully awful. We can analyze numbers until we’re blue in the face, but sports are quite frequently about the intangibles. Sometimes the All Star just doesn’t work out–whether it be injury (Nomar, for example) or a lack of chemistry with his teammates. Sometimes you take a chance and you get more than you expected–DeRosa, Soto, or even Hoffpaiur this week!
Why go chasing waterfalls?! We’re winning, and I don’t know why you’d mess with a team that’s winning.
Funny, because you are arguing with me. Does that mean that you are a brick wall?
What is your point? Where did I say that Theriot did not make a contribution? I have actually said the opposite.
FACT: That says nothing about his ability, other than that he is good enough to make a major league team.
FACT: That says nothing about his ability.
FACT: Lou also has praised Bob Howry multiple times this year for his efforts. But maybe you think that Theriot and Howry are equal.
You can support a team without thinking that every player is a good player.
Actually, I have referred to ALL his numbers.
I am a big Theriot fan.
I would say the thing that makes me so high on Theriot is because he gets more out of his ability than most players. If Soriano (for example) got as much out of his talent as Theriot gets out of his, Soriano would have all kinds of record breaking performances to his credit.
As I type this it is the top of the ninth. Soriano flied out. But Theriot got a hit. Lee hit into a double play.
The numbers may be average, but it SEEMS like he is always getting a hit.
Yes, dave, you have referred to all of his numbers, but what you refer to the most are his power numbers, therefore beating the dead horse.
No one here has argued about his power numbers…there is nothing to argue there. The only thing that I have disagreed with is your statement that Theriot is a “below average hitter”.
Theriot ended 2008 with a .306 BA, a .386 OBP, and the 2nd most hits of all Cubs players, really those are not the numbers of a below average hitter.
In post #19, you say that Theriot’s BABIP is much higher this year than the MLB average. You say it screams luck. Maybe you could agree that Theriot is an average hitter who has been extremly lucky this year. How’s that???
Oh, and since you are so sensitive to what you think are personal attacks, what’s with the personal attack against Becky (#44)? Common man!
Nah… I don’t think I would agree with that. I would say that he is a below average player who, with the help of being lucky, had an average offensive season.
And the “personal attack against Becky” was clearly a joke in response to her attack.
AMEN Kris! You said it all! Theriot definitely gets the most out of his talent through hard work and dedication to the team. Comparing him to my kid isn’t a personal attack. If I’d wanted to “personally attack” him I would have. Look, we’ve watched most of these games almost daily for 162 games. It sounds crazy but these players feel kind of like family after all that time. I don’t like to hear any of them criticized. We have a great team and it’s time to stop nit picking and get behind them 100%. My husband, kids and I are Cub fans, and yes, Ryan Theriot fans. We love them all-period. Go Cubs Go! This is the year!
Yes!!!! dave finally admitted that Theriot has not been a “below average hitter” this year!
And we have now hit 50 comments to this post. Isn’t that like a record or something?
I don’t know if it’s a record or not, I accidentally stumbled onto this site and couldn’t resist adding my two cents in. Theriot has the 2nd most hits for the Cubs this season! You can try, but you just can’t quiet The Riot. (or his loyal fans)