Comments on: Which Teams Had the Best Hitters In 2007? http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/ A Chicago Cubs Blog and Fan Site Sat, 20 Mar 2010 03:35:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: ddave http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8814 ddave Sat, 22 Dec 2007 19:11:34 +0000 http://dev.viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8814 **However, they did not contribute equally. Theriot added value, Marquis did not**<br /> <br /> What?!?! Marquis did not add value?<br /> <br /> Theriot had a VORP (value over replacement player) of 6.6.<br /> <br /> Marquis had a VORP of 16.5<br /> <br /> **He earned and deserves to be our starting SS next year. **<br /> <br /> How so? I really don't understand how being one of the worst offensive players in baseball while playing decent, but not good, defense earns or deserves anything.<br /> <br /> **If he struggles offensively and defensively, I would give him some time to play through his stuggles.**<br /> <br /> Except he struggles most of last year. What makes you think that he will be able to play through his struggles this year?<br /> <br /> **With all the emphasis on offensive numbers lately, it appears that teams are still looking at defense first for those postions.**<br /> <br /> Sure... but Theriot is not a very good defensive player, which he really needs to be to make up for his bad offense. He is a solid player - he won't make a lot of errors, but he also has limited range. He is definitely not one of the better defensive SS's in the game. **However, they did not contribute equally. Theriot added value, Marquis did not**

What?!?! Marquis did not add value?

Theriot had a VORP (value over replacement player) of 6.6.

Marquis had a VORP of 16.5

**He earned and deserves to be our starting SS next year. **

How so? I really don’t understand how being one of the worst offensive players in baseball while playing decent, but not good, defense earns or deserves anything.

**If he struggles offensively and defensively, I would give him some time to play through his stuggles.**

Except he struggles most of last year. What makes you think that he will be able to play through his struggles this year?

**With all the emphasis on offensive numbers lately, it appears that teams are still looking at defense first for those postions.**

Sure… but Theriot is not a very good defensive player, which he really needs to be to make up for his bad offense. He is a solid player – he won’t make a lot of errors, but he also has limited range. He is definitely not one of the better defensive SS’s in the game.

]]> By: Joe http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8813 Joe Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:28:20 +0000 http://dev.viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8813 Good observation, Jose Good observation, Jose

]]> By: Jose http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8812 Jose Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:08:31 +0000 http://dev.viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8812 Joe:<br /> With all the debating back and forth about our SS position. I forgot to mention the one part of your post that I loved. My dad, a long time Cubs fan who just past away, always taught me that the main criteria for selecting your C, CF, and SS should be defense first and then offense. Since these positions are the heart of your defense. <br /> <br /> With all the emphasis on offensive numbers lately, it appears that teams are still looking at defense first for those postions. Or maybe it is just harder to find solid hitting C, SS, and CF. Joe:
With all the debating back and forth about our SS position. I forgot to mention the one part of your post that I loved. My dad, a long time Cubs fan who just past away, always taught me that the main criteria for selecting your C, CF, and SS should be defense first and then offense. Since these positions are the heart of your defense.

With all the emphasis on offensive numbers lately, it appears that teams are still looking at defense first for those postions. Or maybe it is just harder to find solid hitting C, SS, and CF.

]]> By: Jose http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8811 Jose Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:02:17 +0000 http://dev.viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8811 Joe:<br /> Good question. Here is my take. <br /> 1. If he struggles offensively and is batting second, I would move him to the bottom of the order. Assuming he does not make a ton of errors to start the season. <br /> <br /> 2. If he struggles offensively and defensively, I would give him some time to play through his stuggles. The length of time depends on how the team is playing. If we are winnning games, I would give him more time. If we are losing games, I would give him less time. If he does not improve, I would bench him. Problem is, after that, who plays SS. Joe:
Good question. Here is my take.
1. If he struggles offensively and is batting second, I would move him to the bottom of the order. Assuming he does not make a ton of errors to start the season.

2. If he struggles offensively and defensively, I would give him some time to play through his stuggles. The length of time depends on how the team is playing. If we are winnning games, I would give him more time. If we are losing games, I would give him less time. If he does not improve, I would bench him. Problem is, after that, who plays SS.

]]> By: Joe Aiello http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8810 Joe Aiello Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:18:26 +0000 http://dev.viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8810 Jose,<br /> <br /> So if Theriot gets the starting nod this year and performs the same, does it mean it's time for a change? Jose,

So if Theriot gets the starting nod this year and performs the same, does it mean it’s time for a change?

]]> By: Jose http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8809 Jose Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:16:18 +0000 http://dev.viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8809 Matt:<br /> You will never find a post from me praising Cedeno. So I am not sure I get the point of your sarcasm. We all want a roster full of 300 hitters ñ but that will not happen. When building a long term roster, you need a balance of high price stars with low price players. Theriot fits the second criteria. Your point about comparing Theriot, Marquis and Dempster is not valid. They all play for the same team and have a job to do. However, they did not contribute equally. Theriot added value, Marquis did not, Dempster may have had acceptable stats, but he caused a big spike in antacid sales whenever he pitched. Also, if we did not have Marquis and Dempster, we would have about $13MM to spend on other players. Maybe a 300 hitting SS, to keep you happy. <br /> <br /> Joe:<br /> I do not disagree with your numbers, but you are overlooking one BIG point. Theriot was basically a rookie last year. There is no way you can expect him to hit 300 and field 1000 in his rookie year. How many of the SS, that had better stats than Theriot, were first year SS? He showed us 110% on every game and every play. He earned and deserves to be our starting SS next year. However, your numbers prove that he should bat towards the bottom of the order. Matt:
You will never find a post from me praising Cedeno. So I am not sure I get the point of your sarcasm. We all want a roster full of 300 hitters ñ but that will not happen. When building a long term roster, you need a balance of high price stars with low price players. Theriot fits the second criteria. Your point about comparing Theriot, Marquis and Dempster is not valid. They all play for the same team and have a job to do. However, they did not contribute equally. Theriot added value, Marquis did not, Dempster may have had acceptable stats, but he caused a big spike in antacid sales whenever he pitched. Also, if we did not have Marquis and Dempster, we would have about $13MM to spend on other players. Maybe a 300 hitting SS, to keep you happy.

Joe:
I do not disagree with your numbers, but you are overlooking one BIG point. Theriot was basically a rookie last year. There is no way you can expect him to hit 300 and field 1000 in his rookie year. How many of the SS, that had better stats than Theriot, were first year SS? He showed us 110% on every game and every play. He earned and deserves to be our starting SS next year. However, your numbers prove that he should bat towards the bottom of the order.

]]> By: ddave http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8808 ddave Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:54:16 +0000 http://dev.viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8808 **Fans are willing to question Theriot play in 2007. However, many of those same fans are willing to accept Marquis and Dempster as part of our ptiching staff.**<br /> <br /> Marquis and Dempster were both league average pitchers. Marquis had an ERA+ of 101 and Dempster had a 99.<br /> <br /> Theriot wasn't close to league average.<br /> <br /> **With the exception of possibly Lugo, who had a rough year adjusting to the big market of Boston, all of those guys are garbage.**<br /> <br /> Not only that, but I think that most of them play far superior defense. So Theriot is one of the worst offensive SS's in the game, but he is not one of the best defensive SSs in the game. **Fans are willing to question Theriot play in 2007. However, many of those same fans are willing to accept Marquis and Dempster as part of our ptiching staff.**

Marquis and Dempster were both league average pitchers. Marquis had an ERA+ of 101 and Dempster had a 99.

Theriot wasn’t close to league average.

**With the exception of possibly Lugo, who had a rough year adjusting to the big market of Boston, all of those guys are garbage.**

Not only that, but I think that most of them play far superior defense. So Theriot is one of the worst offensive SS’s in the game, but he is not one of the best defensive SSs in the game.

]]> By: Joe Aiello http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8807 Joe Aiello Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:39:14 +0000 http://dev.viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8807 That's the thing, Jose. Theriot DIDN'T play average to better than average SS.<br /> <br /> His 72 OPS+ was 21 points below the league average and 28 points below what the OPS+ creators consider average.<br /> <br /> The only SS worse than him were:<br /> - John McDonald (TOR)<br /> - Omar Vizquel (SF)<br /> - Bobby Crosby (OAK)<br /> - Tony Pena (KC)<br /> - Adam Everett (HOU)<br /> - Julio Lugo (BOS)<br /> <br /> With the exception of possibly Lugo, who had a rough year adjusting to the big market of Boston, all of those guys are garbage. I wish I could say Theriot outranked some of the good ones, but I can't. The numbers just won't let me.<br /> <br /> I'm not saying I don't like Theriot or the way he plays. I think he definitely needs to have a part on this team. I'm just not sure the everyday SS spot is the part for him.<br /> <br /> One final note to hopefully increase my argument. In 2005, the year we got a full season out of Neifi Perez, he posted an OPS+ of 75, 3 points higher than Theriot did in 2007. I didn't hear people clamoring for his spot to stay solid. That’s the thing, Jose. Theriot DIDN’T play average to better than average SS.

His 72 OPS+ was 21 points below the league average and 28 points below what the OPS+ creators consider average.

The only SS worse than him were:
- John McDonald (TOR)
- Omar Vizquel (SF)
- Bobby Crosby (OAK)
- Tony Pena (KC)
- Adam Everett (HOU)
- Julio Lugo (BOS)

With the exception of possibly Lugo, who had a rough year adjusting to the big market of Boston, all of those guys are garbage. I wish I could say Theriot outranked some of the good ones, but I can’t. The numbers just won’t let me.

I’m not saying I don’t like Theriot or the way he plays. I think he definitely needs to have a part on this team. I’m just not sure the everyday SS spot is the part for him.

One final note to hopefully increase my argument. In 2005, the year we got a full season out of Neifi Perez, he posted an OPS+ of 75, 3 points higher than Theriot did in 2007. I didn’t hear people clamoring for his spot to stay solid.

]]> By: Matt http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8806 Matt Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:36:41 +0000 http://dev.viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8806 Yes, Jose we know your love for players with a salary of under $500,000. Ronny Cedeno fits that bill, do you like him too?<br /> <br /> Second, you can't argue Theriot vs. Dempster and Marquis. They don't play the same position, and contribute to the roster completely differently. Marquis only takes the mound once out of every five days, how can you even compare that to an everyday position player? <br /> <br /> It's posts like that that really grind my gears. Joe goes out of his way, and sometimes myself, to put up posts that give numeric values and stats that show theses guys are either better than you think (Dempster) or not as good as you think (Theriot), but it's like talking to a brick wall. <br /> <br /> As for the stars comment. I'd say we we may have some "stars" but the team lacks leadership. Yes, Jose we know your love for players with a salary of under $500,000. Ronny Cedeno fits that bill, do you like him too?

Second, you can’t argue Theriot vs. Dempster and Marquis. They don’t play the same position, and contribute to the roster completely differently. Marquis only takes the mound once out of every five days, how can you even compare that to an everyday position player?

It’s posts like that that really grind my gears. Joe goes out of his way, and sometimes myself, to put up posts that give numeric values and stats that show theses guys are either better than you think (Dempster) or not as good as you think (Theriot), but it’s like talking to a brick wall.

As for the stars comment. I’d say we we may have some "stars" but the team lacks leadership.

]]> By: Jose http://viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8805 Jose Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:27:00 +0000 http://dev.viewfromthebleachers.com/blog/2007/12/20/which-teams-had-the-best-hitters-in-2007/#comment-8805 Here is what I find amazing. Fans are willing to question Theriot play in 2007. However, many of those same fans are willing to accept Marquis and Dempster as part of our ptiching staff. For me, at least, I have more confidence in Theriot at SS than Marquis in the rotation or Dempster in the bullpen/rotation. Given Theriot's salary, I also would rather have him on my team than Marquis and Dempster.<br /> <br /> Theriot's play is not the reason we did not play better last year. He did what is is suppose to do. He played average to slightly better than average SS and and the numbers listed by ddave, only shows me that Theriot should be batting towards the bottom of the order. It appears some fans want Theroit to be a leader on this team. That will not happen. We have too many so called stars, who make a ton of money, who are supposed to do that. They did not and that is why, last year, we did not play better.<br /> <br /> Here is to a better 2008. Here is what I find amazing. Fans are willing to question Theriot play in 2007. However, many of those same fans are willing to accept Marquis and Dempster as part of our ptiching staff. For me, at least, I have more confidence in Theriot at SS than Marquis in the rotation or Dempster in the bullpen/rotation. Given Theriot’s salary, I also would rather have him on my team than Marquis and Dempster.

Theriot’s play is not the reason we did not play better last year. He did what is is suppose to do. He played average to slightly better than average SS and and the numbers listed by ddave, only shows me that Theriot should be batting towards the bottom of the order. It appears some fans want Theroit to be a leader on this team. That will not happen. We have too many so called stars, who make a ton of money, who are supposed to do that. They did not and that is why, last year, we did not play better.

Here is to a better 2008.

]]>