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Wednesday

9

November 2011

69

COMMENTS

The End of Joe Pa?

Written by , Posted in General

Even if you are not a college football fan, you know who Joe Pa is. The 84 year old head coach of the Penn State football team is facing a lot of pressure to resign in the wake of the news that one of his former assistant coaches was involved in a massive child sex abuse scandal with the issue being that Paterno was made aware of it and the only action taken on his part was reporting it to the athletic director.

This comes from Wikipedia:

Paterno’s former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky was arrested on 40 counts of molesting eight young boys over a 15-year period, including incidents that occurred at Penn State.[27]A 2011 grand jury investigation reported that a graduate assistant told Paterno in 2002 that he had seen Sandusky performing a sex act on a 10-year-old boy in Penn State football’s shower facilities. According to the report, Paterno notified Athletic Director Tim Curley the next day about the incident.[28] Also in November 2011, Curley and university senior vice president Gary Schultz were charged with failing to report the incident to police and lying to a grand jury regarding what they knew about the incident.[29] Although Paterno has not been implicated in any wrongdoing, and was praised by the grand jury for informing Curley,[28] advocates for sexual abuse victims have called for charges to be brought against Paterno for not contacting the police himself.[30] On November 7th, Pennsylvania state police Commissioner Frank Noonan said that though Paterno may have fulfilled his legal requirement to report suspected abuse, “somebody has to question about what I would consider the moral requirements for a human being that knows of sexual things that are taking place with a child,” and that, “I think you have the moral responsibility, anyone. Not whether you’re a football coach or a university president or the guy sweeping the building. I think you have a moral responsibility to call us.”[31] Further, criticism of Paterno, including calls for his dismissal, followed reports of these arrests for his role in “protecting Penn State’s brand instead of a child”,[32] and allowing Sandusky to retain emeritus status and unfettered access to the university’s football program and facilities despite knowledge of the allegations of sexual abuse.

Let’s discuss the Joe Pa situation this morning.

  • lizzie

    What a sad, sad state of affairs out there. I think Paterno should and will be gone by the end of the week, as well as the University president. So troubling.

  • Eddie Von White

    It takes a life time to build a reputation and once it is lost it is gone forever. Up until yesteray, Joe Paternal had an impeccable reputation. In my opinion (since that is what Pennsylvania State Police Commissioner Frank Noonan gave us above) Paternal should have done more. However, I think in Paternal’s mind he did what he was supposed to do. If I may generalize, I have found that people from his generation don’t necessarily respond to this type of thing like people from my generation do. Back in the day, they just looked the other way. Paternal did more than look the other way, he reported it, and his mind probably felt he had done what he should.

    I feel bad for those 8 boys and most likely many more unreported whose lives will never be the same. Sexual abuse haunts its victim for a life time.

  • Chuck

    I am going to reserve judgement until all the facts come out. It is possible that to following conversation took place:
    Joe Pa: “I saw… What should we do?”
    Curley: “Thanks for telling me this. I’ll contact he police. Don’t tell anybody about this until I say so.”
    A couple of days pass
    Joe Pa: “What is going on with this Sandusky thing?”
    Curley: “I contacted the police and they are investigating. Don’t tell anybody about this until the investigation is complete. We don’t want anything to go wrong. Just concentrate on the next game and keeping your program going. I’ll take care of this.”
    Then either Joe Pa forgot about it (he is in his 80s) or was told that the investigation was over and the allegation was false. If the AD was lying to Joe Pa, I am unsure what he was supposed to do. In his mind he was following the chain of command like he is supposed to do. He, according to the story, did not see the incident so reporting it to his superior was the right thing to do.
    That being said, Joe Pa probably should have followed up to make sure that everything was being done properly. But who was he going to follow up with? The AD and if he was lying…
    One thing I am sure of is that if Sandusky was molesting kids he should have his johnson cut off before being put down.

  • Doug S.

    I would side with Eddie in thinking Joe probably he felt he had done what he should. I would hate to see his great career end on this dark note.

    I cannot imagine what motivates these perverts to do what they do.

  • Randall

    I know that Joe Pa is held in high reguards by everyone but if you read the grand jury statement on the entire situation and see that Sandusky was caught TWICE rapping young boys in the shower AT PSU and nothing was really done to him then everyone involved should 1. Lose their job ( Fired, not allowed to retire ) 2. Be arrested ( yes including Joe Pa ). Joe Pa was told by THE ACTUAL WITNESS of what happened and all he did is pass it up the chain of command. Really? A 10 YEAR OLD BOY WAS BEING RAPPED ( IN THE WORSE POSSIBLE WAY ) BY 1. AN EMPLOYEE OF YOURS 2. IN YOUR TEAMS SHOWER 3.IT WAS A 10 YEAR OLD BOY! That Joe Pa did not go to the police right then and there was a crime. Put yourself in Joe Pa’s situation. Even if the witness came to you and said that an employee was in the shower with a young boy all alone at 9:30pm on company grounds and they thought something bad was going on would you not call the police right there? If not you do not have kids. All in all it comes down to this….. THE PENN STATE FOOTBALL PROGRAM WAS PROTECTED MORE THAN THOSE KIDS WHERE AND THAT IS WRONG. EVERYONE INVOLVED THAT DID NOT CONTACT THE POLICE ( AND THE WITNESSES THAT DID NOT WHOOP THE CRAP OUT OF SANDUSKY WHEN THEY WALKED IN ON IT ) SHOULD GO TO JAIL. NO QUESTIONS.

  • BLPCB

    What an awful way to end his career. They’ve wanted him gone for a long time and they finally got their opportunity. At least they let him leave at the end of the season and allow for the tribute he deserves.

  • Jedi

    Hard to believe that after 15 years of such behavior Paterno only ever knew or heard rumors of a single incident.

  • Lizzie

    @Chuck I started off with exactly your mindset. First off, I went to Penn State for graduate school so I really didn’t want this all to be true. Second, if I reported something at my company, they are by law not allowed to tell me the outcome of their investigations/actions, etc. Of course if the person I reported got fired or something “big” happened then I’d know, but if I went back to the person I reported to and said “What ever happened about that?” they are not allowed to tell me. And I think Paterno could have made a good case for himself if that was truly his defense. But it’s not. He (and the others) are all saying “we didn’t think it was that bad.” Not that bad? Just “horsing around”? I’m sorry, no man, dare I say OLD man, should be “horsing around” in a shower with a 10 year old boy under any circumstances. For them to say “we didn’t think it was that bad” is worse, in my opinion, than if they did absolutely nothing at all.
    @BLPCB The “tribute he deserves?” Please. Despite what you may think, life isn’t all about sports-realted abilities. Sandusky was a fantastic coach. Does he deserve a tribute too?

  • flyslinger2

    Once again these acts are wrong. Period.

    I read the quote twice just to make sure that I had digested it before comment. What everyone is missing is the “graduate student” and their role in escalating this situation. This is the eye witness and the one that should have reported it to the police along with his/her superiors. His superior did escalate the issue. As I mentioned in a post yesterday on a great website (VFTB!), all organizations have a chain of command for this and other reasons (procurement management, HR, EEOC conformity, etc.). Paterno did exactly what he is supposed to do. He also is a VERY BUSY man. If his head works like mine does he escalated the issue and put a check in his mental box. He then added another mental note to his list to followup with the situation to make sure it was properly handled. He did that and he checked that mental box as well. He escalated the issue to the people who are there to handle this situations and entered into a contract with the university attesting to the fact that they acknowledge these job requirements. The people that should be getting hammered are the people that he escalated this to. They should be loosing their jobs and get blacklisted from future employment. They also should be listed on the nationwide sexual predators website as enablers to those that commit the act. The media is after Paterno because he is a known and popular entity. How much attention would the articles get if the AD or President of the school lost their job for mishandling this issue. Zero. It’s about ratings, notoriety etc. Another reason why Theo shouldn’t be concerned about how his manager swoons the media.

  • Eddie Von White

    Randall – Your points are very valid.

  • Chuck

    I do not have the time to read grand jury testimony if I even knew where to find it.
    If you see something happening with your own eyes, you call the police.
    If someone tells you about something, after the fact, that happened hours ago, you tell your boss (who is responsible for damage control).

  • Norm

    Paterno wasn’t a witness.
    The person that told Paterno should have gone to the police since HE was the witness.

  • Chuck

    Lizzie: If Joe Pe is, in fact, saying that he did not think it was a big deal, he should be fired on the spot. Period.
    My thoughts on child molesters can be summed up in the following statement: Five cents worth of electricity goes a long way.

  • Lizzie

    You guys are amazing. And I know you have kids!!! I’m sure these victims are very thankful that Joe Paterno put a check in his mental box. Look, I’m not saying the others aren’t as responsible, or even more responsible. I’m just not willing to say Paterno was NOT as responsible. And I’m guessing (just guessing, and maybe hoping) neither would you if it was your children.

  • Lizzie

    Chuck, sadly that’s exactly what he is saying. 🙁

  • MJ

    Chuck,

    SI has it posted. Pretty sure a Google search at this point would easily find it. It’s pretty disturbing.

    I don’t think the whole mess rest on JoePa, but he had a hand in it. And if his supervisors are gone, so should he.

  • I have nothing to say about the sports aspect of the story, but this is one of those things that should have resulted in the old hospital-to-jail routine. Whoever let that guy walk out of the locker room on his own volition should be beaten as well. Makes me goddamned sick.

  • flyslinger2

    @Lizzie – when was the last time you had to sit through an EEOC indoctrination? The same government who is trying to protect the innocent makes it almost impossible to comply for fear that one misstep and a multi-billion dollar corporation is brought to a halt. Lawyers and do-gooders have created this mess. A company has to enforce a policy and procedures in response to all of these EEOC rules. The innocent loose again.

  • Lizzie

    @flyslinger I fully understand you are a very important executive who is much more experienced than lowly ol’ me. And should I forget, I know you’ll remind me. 🙂 However that is NOT how they are defending themselves. They are saying they thought it was “no big deal”. Not that they did exactly what they were supposed to do and that they couldn’t do more because they were hampered by laws and protections of the innocent etc. etc. etc. They are ALL saying they thought it was no big deal.

  • Doc Raker

    I have an 11 year old son. I couldn’t imagine. How does one do something so heinous and continue to show his face. Everyone who knew and didn’t report it should be fired and anyone who participated in any way should be prosecuted after the parents of the victims beat the hell out of them.

  • Doc Raker

    I completely agree with Flysinger in that Paterno should not be the focus of the media and that the real crime other than the actual perp is the highest person in charge that failed to report the accusations.

  • flyslinger2

    @Lizzie-we are all the same in God’s eyes and several of His children where abused in ways that we as humans probably will never be able to heal them.

    @Doc-thanks for bringing the emotional element in from a parents perspective. I actually had written a few words in my previous post about that but removed it thinking that I may not want to document what physical abuses I would inflict on a perp who touched one of my children. Suffice it to say I am an avid hunter and have various knives for reducing a 200 pound deer into beautiful filets to season, wrap in bacon and expertly grill on a bed of hickory coals. The perp would hope that I would continue to be a one shot marksman and that my knives were as sharp as they usually are because he would get carved up beyond recognition. I would leave the grilling to the authorities. 🙂

  • Jedi

    Pretty good piece here – and while I don’t agree with all of his assumptions, his main point is particularly important.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/11/07/michael-tomasky-penn-state-coach-joe-paterno-s-moral-fall.html

    PSU is essentially JoePa and as such, he wasn’t merely kicking it up to his “superior” – he was having someone else solve the problem. A problem that he couldn’t/didn’t want to tackle.

    Doc – I think the media’s focus is elsewhere because the controversy is exactly what we’re talking about, Paterno. No one’s out there defending the rapist coach – everyone feels the same about him. “Rid us of the disgusting pervert” doesn’t generate interest like “should the legendary coach have done more?”

  • Jedi

    @fly – I’m with you…and I’d like to hear the argument that capital punishment for child rapists is too harsh. It amazes me that we tolerate these people and later release them back into society with an ankle monitor and probation officer as deterrents.

  • Lizzie

    @flyslinger I will heartily agree with you there. I’m not a hunter but I’d welcome that type of open season!

  • flyslinger2

    Not to get all mushy here but I sure have enjoyed getting to know my VFTB family better and the discussions have been awesome. They have been on the rise as the end of the baseball seasons fades into distant memories.

    “Our Heavenly Father, we are in awe of how you love us in ways we do not deserve. This day please shower your love, protection, and gentle care on these children who were grossly treated. Wrap your loving arms around them and heal them in body, soul and spirit. Amen.”

  • Jeremiah Johnson

    I can’t imagine the emotional roller coaster you’d experience if you found out a close friend and co-worker was a child molester. But if it ends anywhere short of you handing him over into police custody, you haven’t done enough.

    In yesterday’s Morning Roundup, I asked a stupid question about Paterno’s legacy. Obviously the issues at hand are a lot bigger and more important than one man’s career. At the time, I was still optimistic that there was more to the story–that Paterno hadn’t had enough information to act more decisively. I think it’s clear now that he had plenty of cause to show much more concern than he did, and that while he perhaps fulfilled his legal obligations, he fell far short of his moral responsibilities.

  • Jedi

    “He’s liable to lose a lot of those humanitarian awards.”

  • creepy shower prayer is creepy

  • Jeremiah Johnson

    Don’t know if you’ve seen the video of Matt Millen on Sportscenter yesterday afternoon, but I think it gives insight into what the situation is like for people in the Penn State family, as he wrestles with the actions of men he’s counted as friends.

    http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7207952&categoryid=5595394

  • Randall

    Yep, saw that. He is also upset that he and Lou Holts sit on the board of trustees for Sandusky’s Charity that he used to get these kids. Ouch!

  • Seymour Butts

    I agree with Fly in that JoePA was not a witness and did pass on what he had heard to his superiors. Also that the Grad student who witnessed it should have gone to police, but likely had lots of pressure not to.
    I also agree with Lizzie that if JoePA truly said it was no big deal he is to senile to finish out the season.

    Who knew Sandusky was a Priest?

  • Seymour Butts

    Incredible story on a similar issue with different outcome.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45222798/ns/us_news-life/

    Nutshell version, a mental health worker found kiddie porn on a mentally ill patients computer during a home visit. She reported it to police after her bosses told her not to and was fired. Police did file charges against the patient.
    No word on charges against the worker for violating confidentiality laws. I would lose my medical license if I did what she did.
    Had the grad student gone to the police he would likely have been fired,but there is no medical protection law in that case.
    Oh, and it happened in Montana.

  • I’m not positive, but I believe the law in Pennsylvania states that anyone who suspects child abuse must report it to the police (or perhaps child welfare).
    .
    At the minimum, Paterno broke this law.
    .
    I am amused by those who think that Paterno’s reporting it to the AD is somehow mitigating.
    .
    Who is in charge of the football program at U of Pennsylvania? I cannot believe that Paterno does not rule over anything football and the AD’s job is to stay out of his way and accommodate him when necessary.
    .
    Paterno reporting it to the AD is Paterno passing the buck because he didn’t want to deal with it.
    .
    He should be fired and charged.

  • MJ

    I miss the VFTB Ten Commandments.

  • Eddie Von White

    Fly – Amen on both counts.

  • Eddie Von White

    I can tell you the pervert never – and I mean never – thinks it is any big deal to molest a child. Usually it is someone the victim trusts and the pervert tells the victim not to tell anybody or they will both be in big trouble. The victim usually is afraid that he will get blamed since the pervert is a trusted adult. So he keeps his mouth shut. Then years later, the victim comes for counseling. He’s 50 years old by now and still hasn’t come to terms with the guilt and shame he is carrying from the abuse. It is almost always exactly like that. In one family situation I was involved in, the pervert simply shrugged and said: “We all have things in our past we’re not proud of.”
    Ok, so I lifted a pack of gum from the drug store when I was 10 years old (and my dad made me go back, pay for it and apolgize after he applied the board of education to the seat of learning). You raped small boys. Hmmm….ok.”
    I call the cops if I have even the slightest suspicion of wrongdoing. Sure, the cops have to come out and ask a bunch of questions, then file a report and then social services comes out and asks a bunch of questions and it involves a lot of time and paper work and red tape, but at least I can sleep at night.

  • chet

    Did anybody see Law Abiding Citizen? My response would be similar.

    Three interesting twists in this story that are not talked about enough…..

    -Mcquery was promoted from GA (grad assistant) to WR Coach and head of recruiting almost immediately after reporting this incident to Joe Pa. Some say it was within weeks.

    -The original DA that investigated Sandusky back in the earlier part of the decade dissappeared, laptop found in a river in 2004.

    -Jerry Sandusky’s Biography is entitled : Touched – The Jerry Sandusky Story (not a joke, came out about 10 years ago, check amazon)

  • Buddy

    Not sure I ever saw the VFTB 10, MJ. Can you (or somebody) post them for us newer folks? I’m hoping “no political talk” was one of the 10.

  • Buddy

    I found them…

    I. Thou Shall Not Use Profanity
    II. Thou Shall Not personally attack other commenters
    III. Thou Shall Not bait other commenters
    IV. Thou Shall Not argue for the sake of arguing
    V. Thou Shall Not discuss politics unless it’s the subject of the post
    VI. Thou Shall Not use hyperbole when something less will suffice
    VII. Thou Shall Not use sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
    VIII. Thou Shall Not make the same point over and over again
    IX. Thou Shall Not type “no-hitter” to describe any no-hitter in progress
    X. Thou Shall Not be annoyed by the existence of this list

  • cap’n obvious

    The slogan “We are Penn State” will, for Sandusky, the A.D., and vice prez, hopefully be changed to “we are state pen.”

    The whole deal is horrifying to me. They should bulldoze the entire campus and start over as far as I am concerned. Paterno and McQueary at the very least have to be gone, as well as any other football staffer that was privy to even the rumor that this was happening. The most disturbing part of this whole episode is how preventable the abuses since 2002 were, and how many more are coming forward that the grand jury wasn’t aware of. Sandusky’s bail should be revoked, and he should be in an orange jumpsuit yesterday. Far too much evidence for him to be walking around right now.

  • BLPCB

    I am not going to go through all the comments, but I would like to respond to Lizzie’s comment from this morning, after talking about this at work. This was a big thing us lifeguards were talking about today, because if such a thing happened in the Park Center, we would have to report it, under mandated reporter laws. I remember during my training my boss mentioned an incident where a lifeguard noticed kids who were much too big to be wearing diapers alerted the boss and DCFS got involved.
    Now on to the incident at hand: Joe Paterno is probably the most powerful person at Penn State and should have done more. When he was made aware of the allegations, he should have reported it to the AD like he did. Then, he should have demanded a face to face with Sandusky with the AD present. During this time, he calls the police.
    As for what I said about a tribute, I thought about it all day, and I realized there have been legends that didn’t get a tribute. Woody Hayes and Bobby Knight are two examples, guys who got fired for unacceptable actions. I think he should have been fired right away after this broke. Saturday is Penn State’s last home game and senior day, and the image of him being carried off the field after what has happened or the image of all his former players being at his final bowl game like Bobby Bowden is unacceptable in the minds of the Penn State board. I don’t see how he could have finished the season. What I said this morning was because I felt that Penn State had wanted him out for years and finally got a chance to do it.
    Bowden was pushed out at Florida State, but it was for a lousy record. Woody got canned for punching a player. Knight got canned for a series of incidents after he was on his last warning.

  • chris in illinois

    Never knew of the existence of the ten commandments and will henceforth take heed of V.

  • flyslinger2

    Especially with this situation V. is more relevant then ever and I think that it should be reconsidered for the list. Politics is more of an influence in sports then it ever has in the past. Look at the recent kidnapping in Venezuela of the Nats catcher. Think that doesn’t involve politics?

    Everytime there is a series champion, no matter what sport, who is one of the first offices that glums on to the winners? White House.

    Who gets involved every time there is a scandal in a Major Sport? Congress. Because they have all the answers, of course.

    Who bank rolls a lot of the construction of major sports complexes? State and local municipalities.

    I should have been a lawyer.

  • BLPCB

    The government gets involved in this stuff bc it wins votes. Politicians are focused on winning their next election and that’s it.

  • Eddie Von White

    I agree with Flyslinger. It is impossible to separate sports and politics and I might add religion. They are all part of life. Even Athelism is a religion and effects the behavior of its followers. I think the VFTB crowd is respectful and insightful. Like Fly said yesterday, since the season ended, we’ve had some good discussions on here inside of and outside of sports.

  • Seymour Butts

    Fly I’m glad you’re not a lawyer..I’d have to hate you just on principle.

  • Buddy

    Good points all. However, I think it’s very easy to separate baseball from politics and religion on a baseball messageboard (vs. actual society). Last time I checked, we’re all in control of what we type.

  • Jedi

    In control of what we read too…typically when someone brings up something I’d rather not discuss, I just don’t discuss it.

  • Buddy

    Point taken.

  • flyslinger2

    @BLPCB-you are wise beyond your ears! As you mature in age you will learn that nothing happens without some political bent being involved.
    @EVW- 🙂
    @Buddy-politics is influenced by motive. Motive is usually based self-preservation and enrichment.
    @Jedi-you are too inquisitive not to read and thus discuss!

    More importantly are new and more disgusting revelations of the activities that took place at PSU. That whole organization will implode from the top down and will suffer from this scandal for decades to come. There will be hundreds of millions of dollars in court awards to the individuals. If the NCAA doesn’t penalize this school severely I would miss my guess. Horrible.

  • Jedi

    Buddy – that probably came off harsher than I meant it to…I guess I just figure if enough people have commented on it then it’s worth discussing on some level (not that I’m against the VFTB commandments – I just see them more as guidelines…and if we go too far afield then Joe can blow the referees whistle and whip us back into alignment).

  • Eddie Von White

    Just saying – your beliefs are going to come through even on a baseball messageboard – whether you realize it or not -they are what you are – you can’t camouflage them.

  • Buddy

    No worries Jedi. No offense taken.

  • Lizzie

    I kind of like the way we are all sort of self-policing. Many of us knew of the commandments and many others didn’t, but you have to admit the political/religious/whatever commentary really never gets out of hand as it does on many (most?) other sites. We should be proud of ourselves. We can have adult conversations about lots of topics and it’s ok. Heck I’ve seen more heat from Jedi and Norm than any of our “taboo” conversations! (Love you both, even when you fight.) And when BLCPB swears too much and I tell him to knock it off he knows I still love him too. 😉

  • Doc Raker

    The NCAA penalized SMU for paying players by disbanding the SMU football program. If paying players get’s your program suspended what penalty should harboring a child rapist for 10 years get PSU?
    I heard someone at PSU told the rapist not to bring the kids on campus. Really? Why not just tell him, “Rape those kids somewhere else, not here on campus.” Turning a blinds eye to such evil is evil.

  • BLPCB

    Fly – I already have seen it. As I am an Econ grad, everything about it is tied to politics. I was asked what I think the biggest obstacle to an economic recovery is, and I said our politics, because everyone is focused on how to win their next election. We need term limits on all politicians. That would be a built-in mechanism to reduce the size of government and cut spending. /endrant

  • BLPCB

    Also another thing this is not like Ohio State or USC where bowl bans and things were going to take place. Nothing was going to happen to the team if this had been reported promptly

  • Doc Raker

    BLPCB- I agree that politics or the constant pandering to special interest impedes our economic recovery but term limts is just a start not the full answer. The POTUS has term limits and all we get from our current President is a constant campaign. We need to elect people who understand our constitution and don’t pander to special interests with tax payers dollars. Pass the Tea please. Obama can’t even make a decision to build an oil pipeline from Canada to the southern states until after the election because he doesn’t want to upset either side of the issue. The pipeline would put people to work but Obama chooses to run his mouth about jobs than make a decision to put people to work because he may upset his enviro lobby. Poor excuse for leadership.

  • BLPCB

    Doc – I think that the reason for that is because we still have unlimited terms in Congress. If we had term limits in Congress as well, I don’t think you’d see Barry doing this stuff. Obama is a pansy who is afraid of the GOP, when they should be afraid of him. Regardless of whether or not you agree with him or like him, you can’t deny the fact that his first two years, the Dems controlled the House and Senate and all this stuff he is talking about, he could have done it, and done it his way. Instead he tried to play nice with the GOP when their sole agenda has been to defeat him in 2012 from the moment he won the 2008 election.

  • Jedi

    For two years it was his own party he couldn’t get to vote with him, he didn’t need a single Republican vote until after Scott Walker was sworn in…and even then they found a way around it. He wasn’t playing nice with the GOP, he was playing nice with Dems who were to the right of him (and it’s hard not to be to the right of him).

    Also don’t understand the correlation between Congressional term limits and our President having a spine. It’s not in Obama’s nature to lead, term limits for Congress won’t change that.

  • chris in illinois

    I suspect that much of the political commentary that occurs on this board is a result of a wide ranging array of political views among the regulars that haunt this place. That may seem obvious, but I’d guess that Doc Raker and I don’t visit too many of the same sites outside of this one. We all self-select our news outlets these days and the folks on those sites tend to be like-minded…
    .
    .
    .
    That being said, I still will try my damnedest to refrain from talking politics here: you guys won’t ever convince me that W was anything but a colossal disaster and you guys think Obama is an invertebrate…there is nothing either of us can say to change minds on the other side—-hell, I could never get Doc to admit Pena could hit rhp!!!

  • Eddie Von White

    Lizzie – agree – The old saying goes: “If you don’t police yourself someone else will do it for you.” I’ll say it again – I like the broad range of experience and insight that is bantered back and forth on this blog.

    Chris – You hit the nail on the head when it comes to self-selected news outlets.

    And…most of the GWB people don’t care if people think he was a colassal disaster – history will decide his place as it will The Bamster, Bill C., Ronald Reagan and every other president we’ve had and will have. When I took my family to the Abraham Lincoln museum in Springfield, IL – (a must see for everyone when you are in the Chicago area – take a day and drive the 3 hours and visit this museum) Lincoln was considered a colassal disaster by the press and half of the country during his term. But history tells a different story.

    One last parting shot – at least “W” kept us safe from more terrorist attacks and as much as Obama decried Bush’s policies on terrorism, he is using most of them today.

  • Doc Raker

    Carlos Pena can hit right handed pitchers and the policy’s of the left have crippled America.

  • chris in illinois

    Yes, Doc, I too long for the days when you could find our nation’s youth not on a playground or a ball field, but earning their keep in a factory working long hours in order to keep the devil at bay—you know what they say about idle hands. I also miss the golden years where my meat was just as likely to have ground Pete as ground beef. The Nirvana that no regulations for business must have been, oh the tragedy to have been born too late to have experienced the paradise of unfettered capitalism!!!

  • BLPCB

    As a society we need to hold our politicians accountable and demad more from them. Instead of participating in our partys development, we cheer for them like sports teams.

  • BLPCB

    Capitalism alone is not evil. It is evil when allowed to run without regulation or sense

  • Doc Raker

    There you have it Chris, regulating the industrial revolution of the 1890’s is your best example of common sense regulation. It is 2011. You see a safety net within the welfare state, I see the negative consequences of government dependency. A ‘safety net’ sounds compassionate and logical but the unintended consequences of the compassionate safety net has ruined generations. Government dependent youth’s have a much higher chance of ending up in a cementary or prison than a university. It isn’t the job of the politician to actually provide a system that is better, just provide a system that garnishes votes, not actual positive results. Vote Obama, he will keep the public money flowing into incompetent failing public programs. Damn those evil stingy Tea people.

  • chris in illinois

    Hardly a recent example, but certainly illustrative of my point. Given to their own devices, businesses aren’t very altruistic they tend to be quite Randian. I agree that the ‘Government dependent youths’ are more likely to end up in jail or dead—-the poor typically are and this was the case before the social safety net was put in place, only now most of these unfortunate souls generally can eat and do go to schools and do not work in industrial occupations at age 10. What’s your solution if we were to eliminate welfare?? What do those people do??